Hi again Fluffy,

Simple answer - there isn't one! Warning to those that are bored by such things - this is a fairly longish reply.....click away now you have been warned :.

Ahh, now we get into the realms of controversy and tradition and this is where the pedigree including colour comes in to play.

Let's look at dorsal stripe first - the appearance of a dorsal stripe may be what is termed 'counter shading' which appears on foals before their first shed, it may also appear on the winter coat in some horses but then disappear in the summer coat. A true dorsal stripe will not fade or disappear regardless of the time of year.

Since 1987 the AQHA has classified a horse with a dorsal stripe as a dun and a horse without the dorsal stripe as a buckskin. This is also the way which the International Buckskin Horse Association (IBHA) defines the colours.

BUT this is opposite to the way they used to register these colors, so you may, for example, find pedigrees showing a dun horse siring a palomino foal from a chestnut mare - or dun factor appearing from lines where there appears to be no previous dun horses!

I would point you to the following selection of well written articles on this subject, penned by those who know far more than I:


http://www.justamere.com/newsletter/color.asp

http://www.equiworld.net/uk/horsecare/reproduction/colour03.htm

http://www.wbhaonline.net/Dun_Factor.htm

http://www.horsecolor.com/dilutions/cream/index.htm

Let me give you a real example of a 'dun' horse - who is sired by a dun horse out of a palomino mare who was sired by a buckskin horse out of a bay mare.

That in itself shows there are NO hard and fast rules here, it is all down to percentages and chance. Using the standard dilution equation, a Ccr gene (carried by the sire) when over a bay would usually produce a buckskin - but in this instance it produced a palomino (a 3% chance according to research).

Put this mare with Ccr gene to a Dun stallion (homozygous -meaning he has only thown dun foals 16 now) and you have a 25% of a red dun, 25% chance of a Dunalino (palimino colouring with dun factors, 18% chance of a classic dun (like the dad), 18% chance of a Dunskin (creamy golden body, dark mane and tail and dun factor), there are smaller percentage chances of getting black dilutions too, but I wont bore you any longer than I have to.

Currently, you can colour test for the presence of only Red Factor, Agouti, Cream gene and Silver Gene - you can also test for presence of colour modifying patterns such as Tobiano and Sabino. There is currently no test for the Dun gene. We have recently sent off the hair from this boy to see exactly what he carries as we would like to know.

So, you are right to be confused about colour, it can be a very confusing subject. You can make 'educated' guesses but the only real way to tell is to have the hair tested by a lab - either UCal Davis or Avian Biotech who test in this country.

If you are enquiring about a specific horse I would be happy to look at photos and if you give me the pedigree I can give you an opinion. I know of at least two mares in this country who are registered as Buckskin but are, in fact, dun based on their markings and their pedigrees. These mistakes occur due to a basic misunderstanding of the terminology and, as referred to earlier, by the changes in classification of the colours by the registering authorities. If you really want to know, send off the hair, pay ?16 and find out if your horse carries the cream gene and go from there!!

Below is a bit of fun, it is a link to a percentage calculator as a 'foal colour predictor' but beware - it may throw up more questions than it answers!! ;D

http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp

Jude

that makes me wonder what our boy really is (by Every Mothers Child out of a bay mare). AQHA wanted to register him as a bay originally, but after we sent in pics they registered him as dun. He does look dun coloured but has no typical dun markings. His body changes colour from week to week, through various shades of dun, and his mane and tail are choc brown. what do you think?!

Hi ya,

he isn't dun, he doesn't have dun parents which is a requirement for being a dun - EMC is certainly a Buckskin. You boy is probably what is called a chocolate Buckskin - is this the boy I commented on at the Mendip Stud last month.......if it is and I remember correctly he is quite 'dappled' in appearance at some times of the year isn't he? That is also a characteristic of buckskins rather than duns. This is where the confusion comes in from the reclassifying of the colours, albeit 20 years ago.

See below for a pic of a genetically tested buckskin, (Bay dad, palomino mum)who looks so dark as to appear bay!!

Jude

Here is extreme example of why colour registration can be such a muddle sometimes......
Buckskin foal




Then.........



and then.......


Same horse, aged 5

Now is obvious is what is called smokey buckskin which is creme gene evident on black.....sorry about size of pics - they were reduced to thumbnails to start with!!

Jude

wow Jude, good job we didn't call him Doc DUN It easy...!!! (He wasn't at Mendip by the way). He was cream when he was born, and after reading your info it does indeed sound as though he should be reg. as buckskin.....Think we might just get his colour checked - would you have a contact number for the company that do it by any chance? regards, Amanda 

I will email you the forms as I have them saved in my email from when I did them.

Well, as it wasn't him at the Mendip, will he be there this weekend by any chance?

J