Thanks for the link, i'll have a look.

I do have the smae opinion really - my english horse went into an outline and it took time and work but am proud to say that there were no gadgets used along the way. i see people on my yard trying to hold down their heads and its madness. you cant HOLD a horse anywhere. plus they dont use their legs/seat.

I see what you are saying about fixed reins and tying them down. the daft thing is, he wasnt tied down and could get his head pretty much anywhere but giraffe like (and he goes with it level anyway he doesnt usually stick it up there) so i found it odd he kept slamming on and doing it. but i have got the message and wont rush to do it again. he was then reallybacking off the bit when i got on and today i was hacking and was going to mount and another girl went to hold his reins for me as he was going to move and he really freaked that she'd got hold of him. he seems sensitive in the mouth department (is sensitive anyway).

i used to longline my english horse (Monty roberts style) but it doesnt really work with western horses - which is why i was wondering what other people did.

Been told only experts should use gadgets
draw reins tiedowns etc, but that experts dont need them

I mainly lunge our horse in a roller - tho as she's now rather fit, will have to change that until I can get a breastplate! I use side reins with the elastic doughnuts from low-ish d-rings on the roller onto a snaffle bit and it gives her a contact which is a bit flexible to work into. She generally stretches down and works softly over her back, so it is a good exercise for her.
You really want to encourage them to stretch down, rather than be held down - remember to warm them up with their heads free to start with (side reins clipped on roller or saddle, split reins tied to the saddle horn, just tight enough not to get their legs caught if the strike out. Also repeat this at the end of the session at the walk - they will really stretch and relax.
On the rare occasions that she's a bit fresh
I will lunge her in the western saddle with the reins thru the stirrups. Again they should be just tight enough to avoid getting tangled up.

I have lunged her in draw reins and a bungee but found that she tended to back off in these.

Hi Dingbat, the horse does need to feel a certain amount of freedom whilst being directed - if they feel restricted and they haven't got space to move into they will exhibit all these sorts of things. If you are near a decent western trainer, or can take your horse to a clinic, they will be able to show you exactly what will work for you. It's one of those things that we owners can struggle with, then you get a pro to help and it all looks so smooth and easy!

I still use a pessoa on my western horse. I ensure it gives her the freedom she needs in front and she will learn naturally wher to hold her head.

I also long rein and do ground work such as shoulder in as my classical dressage instructor has taught me.

I hate the weight of the western saddles so I don't use the saddle unless i have to and if I want to use one to lunge in then I would use a light weight treeless one.

I would have thought a pessoa was creating a different outline to the one that you are trying to achieve with a western horse?

i did try long lining once but he was completely confused. so i decided not to push that in casei would be doing more harm than good. i do have a harbridge that i've borrowed so if lunging with a roller i can use that - which effectively does the same thing as tying the reins under the legs and back up - but it has much more give in it.

i guess i'll also try and just do it with him free for now and see if he'll learn to take himself longer and stretch once he realises going in the school isnt horrible!