I totally agree. David Brimson is doing a fantastic job, let him continue. He has his finger on the pulse, and has our best interests at heart, we should be happy to join him and help promote and push western through. As the saying goes 'slowly slowly catchy monkey'

REINMAN wrote:
I would just like to steer QQH to a section from:

BEF Articles of Association at clause 4.7 which requires the (BEF) Council to take account of the membership criteria for:

• 3 years audited accounts (4.7.1)
• committed to equestrianism and/or equestrian sports and the development thereof in the United Kingdom (4.7.2)
• the organisation not having an interest similar to one already represented by a member(4.7.3)<br><br>Post edited by: REINMAN, at: 2007/12/16 14:52

Excellent! Serves to further highlight my points exactly....oh sorry David, I think I called you Peter earlier.....getting you confused with Admin

Jude

Hi Jude/all,
with the greatest respect, I think it’s a case of reading into things what you want to hear from the constitution!!
.................BR is western, WES/AQHA is western, that’s how equestrianism in the UK view us. WES is a club and AQHA is a Breed Society. they are not a discipline or different way of riding and therefore do NOT qualify for membership and neither will an Alliance.

Let me try to put things in a different light.

For about four years now I have been a chief executive at the BEF for British Reining.
During that time I have been able absorb both the workings of the BEF structure, the whole genre of equestrianism as it is perceived from within the Federation and their attitude to ‘western’…..and that is probably the most crucial issue.

The way to gain any respect for BR (especially after all our probs) was to work hard and long alongside all the other disciplines on council and to have equal input and undertake as much work and be equally productive on the many, many day to day equestrian management issues. To put things into perspective here, some member bodies have more than fifty permanent paid staff!! Gradually I have gained good working relationships with, most of the other member body representatives, the staff at BEF and crucially the strategy and direction of the Board and Council.

Now there is a trust issue here:
I know how it all works, I know what they like (BEF) and what they don’t like and in this affiliation debate, I know what they want and what they will accept.
Believe me I have had so much input and dialogue on the ‘Western issue’ both in full council and in casual dialogue with individual members of BEF management. I am tying to give some guidance here via the forum on a way forward for western.
I have been privileged to been put in this role by the council members of BR in a specific role for BR, I cannot at this crucial stage stand aside from Western in general.

To be in a position of trying to help and guide so many members of different societies along specific route developed from a great deal of genuine understanding of the system of what could or could not happen, is a bit of a burden. If we win, we win big time if we loose only western looses BUT, BR carries on without you.

It will not happen the way Jude and others would like. What it does do is to illustrate very admirably their passion and commitment to their way of riding….

Once again just look at the process so far. WES has inquired about becoming a member of BEF, basically they were told NO, AQHA has made a formal application and also told NO, unless they affiliate!! (albeit to British Breeding)
At this point we have a way in, and that is the whole point of the BEF invitation to affiliate. They are opening the door and providing the opportunity, the only opportunity.

The trust issue here is to take advice from a BEF member (BR) that has the working knowledge of that way in for Western.
Maybe the best thing that could ever happen in Western is to start creating some trust??

REINMAN wrote:
Hi Jude/all,
with the greatest respect, I think it’s a case of reading into things what you want to hear from the constitution!! That certainly works both ways - if not we would have no legal system and I would be unemployed
.................BR is western, WES/AQHA is western, that’s how equestrianism in the UK view us. WES is a club and AQHA is a Breed Society. they are not a discipline or different way of riding and therefore do NOT qualify for membership and neither will an Alliance.

Hence my comments about not meeting the criteria as things stand

Let me try to put things in a different light.

For about four years now I have been a chief executive at the BEF for British Reining.
During that time I have been able absorb both the workings of the BEF structure, the whole genre of equestrianism as it is perceived from within the Federation and their attitude to ‘western’…..and that is probably the most crucial issue.

The way to gain any respect for BR (especially after all our probs) was to work hard and long alongside all the other disciplines on council and to have equal input and undertake as much work and be equally productive on the many, many day to day equestrian management issues. To put things into perspective here, some member bodies have more than fifty permanent paid staff!! Gradually I have gained good working relationships with, most of the other member body representatives, the staff at BEF and crucially the strategy and direction of the Board and Council.

Now there is a trust issue here:
I know how it all works, I know what they like (BEF) and what they don’t like and in this affiliation debate, I know what they want and what they will accept.
Believe me I have had so much input and dialogue on the ‘Western issue’ both in full council and in casual dialogue with individual members of BEF management. I am tying to give some guidance here via the forum on a way forward for western.
I have been privileged to been put in this role by the council members of BR in a specific role for BR, I cannot at this crucial stage stand aside from Western in general.

To be in a position of trying to help and guide so many members of different societies along specific route developed from a great deal of genuine understanding of the system of what could or could not happen, is a bit of a burden. If we win, we win big time if we loose only western looses BUT, BR carries on without you.

It will not happen the way Jude and others would like. I have not said I did not think this should happen this way, in fact I clearly stated that I did not disagree with the majority of what had been said merely that it was presented as a fait acompli which is a very bitter pill to swallow for most hence the various reactions
What it does do is to illustrate very admirably their passion and commitment to their way of riding….

Once again just look at the process so far. WES has inquired about becoming a member of BEF, basically they were told NO, AQHA has made a formal application and also told NO, unless they affiliate!! (albeit to British Breeding)
At this point we have a way in, and that is the whole point of the BEF invitation to affiliate. They are opening the door and providing the opportunity, the only opportunity.

The trust issue here is to take advice from a BEF member (BR) that has the working knowledge of that way in for Western. Maybe the best thing that could ever happen in Western is to start creating some trust??

Trust, like respect is earnt, I have no reason to mistrust you - you have not done anything to warrant that as far as I am aware, questioning does not equate to mistrust merely to an enquiring mind who likes to understand the numerous sides of the issue. So far many of your arguments are sound - personally I am glad that the majority folk on here have not simply said "yes, let's do it" or "no way" but have taken the time to look and research and take the discussion further which gives a feeling of inclusion in the process, however small it may be. No one likes to feel utterly out of control of something that affects them and, in this instance, that is effectively what was being asked for - put in the style of 'this is the only choice' .......I applaud the sentiment contained in the final section of your post...the issue here is whether we blindly take advice from a BEF (BR) member who knows the way things work or whether we question and research the topic and issues, ask for information and counsel from others who know the workings and may have even been part of the discussions also, and content ourselves that this is indeed the best or possibly even the only line to take - not simply the most opportunist or simplest.

Jude

Post edited by: QQH, at: 2007/12/18 10:29

With respect to the discussion on BEF affiliation, there are some very important points that have not yet been put forth and which completely contradict certain statements made by Mr. Brimson. Namely,

Neither the Pony Club nor the BHS represent a specific discipline, yet THEY ARE MEMBERS OF BEF. These organisations are little different operatively than WES and the AQHA-UK. As far as the argument that BEF exists to promote the winning of medals, there are no medals to be won within the BHS.
Dressage, show jumping and eventing are ALL ENGLISH RIDING events, just as Western Pleasure, Trail, and Cutting are Western riding events, yet dressage, show jumping and eventing ARE ALL SEPARATELY REPRESENTED as part of BEF. Therefore the statement that Reining and Western Pleasure are the same thing—Western riding—and can only be represented by one body—BR—is fallacious and patently ridiculous.

As far as the discussion of trust goes, one need only look back at the recent history of BR to see exactly why that organisation should NOT be trusted to represent the interests of all of the rest of us. No matter which side one was on during the ‘mutiny’ against the former elected Council, the fact remains that many constitutional rules and regulations were blatantly ignored in the takeover of power by the current ruling body. Then there was the whole affair of how the BR team competing at the WEG was chosen in 2006, which, again, was a tawdry affair no matter whom one thought should be on the team. As the BEF itself ruled in response to David Gray’s appeal, the selection process was NOT fair and transparent, plus we had BR Council members using the official BR newsletter—which was sent out to all BR members and the postage paid out of BR membership fees—to air personal views and make offensive comments about David Gray, as if neither David Gray nor those many BR members who supported his appeal were members of BR or were worthy of having their views represented. Even after the BEF found in favour of David Gray’s appeal, the BR Council insisted on sending out a special letter to all members—again paid for by funds from ALL members—denying the validity of the BEF’s ruling. Finally, with respect to the UKCC programme, I have already pointed out in my article on Western riding instructors posted on this website that development of the programme was a completely closed shop with favourites appointed by still others auto-nominated to certain positions, and with no consultation whatsoever with all the many very knowledgeable, experienced and capable Western riding professionals in the U.K. who belonged to other organisations, or even while belonging to BR were not within the BR circle of ‘those who count’. And as I also pointed out in a response to another of David’s article on this website, no one from BR was the least bit interested at the beginning of the Western riding community’s battle to save their horses’ health and well-being from the consequences of the gel-track invasion, which I and others like Jane Wallace had been fighting for a good two years before DB took any interest.

No one can or should deny, or be ungrateful, that David and Pauline Brimson have worked exhaustively in their respective roles in promoting Reining and, indirectly, other Western riding disciplines. However, the attitude of those who compete only in Reining toward the other Western disciplines has very often been dismissive and condescending, despite the vast size of the Pleasure, HUS, Halter, Cutting, and Barrel Racing industries worldwide. As an example, at Bodiam one year, the Reiners (of whom I was one) were given an unscheduled hour-long break to let the Reining arena dry out more, so the schedule was completely changed and the Halter competitors (of whom I was also one) were callously given exactly 15 minutes to run like mad back to the stabling area, change their clothes, clean up their muddy horses, and get back to the arena, which tells me that Halter is obviously not taken seriously by certain UK Reining organisers. The track record of BR is not a good one, and the behaviour of certain BR Council members leaves much to be desired; therefore, I and many others prominent in the Western riding industry in Britain chose to avoid any affiliation with such an organisation.

Edited to allow users without access to wordprocessing software to read this respose - Admin

Post edited by: admin, at: 2007/12/28 15:24

I was going to add a point but, on reflection, I don't think it is needed.

Thanks beeb for adding your information.

Jude.

Post edited by: QQH, at: 2007/12/29 12:05